A Love Issue

“Why do Christians hate gay people so much?” That’s a question asked in this video by Floodgate Productions. As Christians we are called to speak God’s truth and call sin sin. We are also commanded to love one another. Too often, we focus on the speaking and teaching part, but fail in the love part.

Christians often use derogatory terms when referring to homosexuals. We sometimes participate in or condone jokes poked at an LGBT person’s expense. We have been known to mimic them and treat them with disdain.

As this video suggests, this is not a “gay” issue. This is a “love” issue. In standing our ground for what we believe, have we stopped loving? Watch the video and then share your comments below.

Video is Copyright © Floodgate Productions. All Rights Reserved. Video is used here with permission.
This video is available for purchase via SermonSpice.com.

About Brad White

R. Brad White is the Founder and President of Changing the Face of Christianity Inc. Brad is a former atheist and became an "on fire for God" Christian in 2005. In 2008, Brad became incredibly burdened by what he perceived as a Christian faith far off course, and Christians far from living the teachings of Jesus Christ. In 2010, Brad submitted to the calling to reverse these negative Christian stereotypes, by starting "Changing the Face of Christianity" (a 501c3 Texas non-profit corporation). Read more about R. Brad White


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Comments

  1. Christal Douglas says

    God does not condone the sexual acts of Gay people. But God loves people whether they are Gay or not. I had a couple of friends. One was Gay and the other was Lesbian. They both knew I was a Christian. The woman asked me to ingage in a sexual relationship with her. I had to tell her no. Because she did not want to lose her sexual lust for me, I had to end my friendship with her. Do you really think I was happy about the decision I had to make? NO!!! I cried. I bawled! I went for weeks in mourning of the friendship with this person. As if I had lost a sister or even one of my own children! It hurt on both sides!! It was very painful! I really didn’t know what else to do.

    • Robert W. says

      Christal, I don’t really see this as a gay issue but one of unwanted attention. It would have been just as wrong for a male friend to press his feelings on you when you can’t return them. Male-female friendships are often ruined this way when one wants to take it further and the other doesn’t. I think most LGBT people realize that straight people can’t return the kind of affection they need and don’t act on such feelings. Please don’t judge an entire group because of the actions of one. But remember, you don’t get to choose who you fall in love with.

    • Ernie says

      Christal, You handled it well. You love your friend and yet you know participating in their sin is wrong and would violate your first love, God. People do choose who they fall in love with. They don’t choose who they feel and attraction for. But they can choose to act on those feelings or not. It doesn’t matter what the sin is. We all have a choice. And you chose wisely to obey God. The best thing you did and the best way to love your friend or anyone else is to obey God. You are a wonderful sister!

  2. John Hawthorne says

    The following ( “the hypocrite”)is my comment concerning an article found in this publication – but the application is the same. As a true Christian we are too show respect and love others, but sin is sin. I am not required to like it, but I am required as a Christian to walk in the words of Paul found in the 13 chapter of 1 Corinthians. All professing Christians should study 1 Corinthians 13, and Matthew 22:37-40. Be enlightened. The definition is correct – the hypocrite is “a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs”. But now the definition of Christian and religious beliefs and/or principles must be defined. The “person of religion” is a believer of rules and regulations required for getting the attention of God and making their way to a better place, i.e. heaven. The Christian, is a believer in the principles of God. The Kingdom of God, the love of God, for God (the one true God) is Love. Jesus gave us 2 commands found in Matthew 22:37-40 (NKJV) to follow. In the 40th verse of NKJV the reader will see the word “hang”. Everything that the true Christian Believer does hangs on these 2 commands. Yes, true Christians love all people, but hate the sin. A curtain is unable to hang on its own, it must have a rod on which to hang. For the Christian, the rod on which we hang is LOVE; for God is LOVE. P.S. I’m not talking about mushy love, ms goodie two shoes love, but real love.

    • john says

      God hates the sin but loves the sinner….these kind of statements shows the true ignorance of the american so-called christianity community…the new testament tells me Romans 9:8 “but Esau have I hated”. Proverbs gives us many examples of who or what God hates. Proverbs 6:16 tells me that God hates “A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. ” One cannot respond to one that is “an abomination” (which is not a sin but one that is an abomination before an holy God) in their emotions. And that is what I hear and see today concerning the issue that God hates the sin but loves the sinner: which is not what total scripture teaches at all.

    • Tim says

      First, we are talking about complex issues that have many variables. Clearly, there are some in the Bible that G-d hates, not the sin but the sinner Psalms 5:5. (He hates the worker, of iniquity, not the iniquity of the worker). However it is also Biblical that he commended His love toward all of mankind. I agree that the Christian community discriminates against sodomites. There are other sins and abominations that seem okay to American Christianity. For instance, most professing Christians will sit through sensuality, nudity, inappropriate violence, covetousness etc…. while watching movies or some other form of entertainment. Those same people will draw the line at sodomy. It is almost as though they have an acceptable sin level. Granted though, I am repulsed by feminine acting men. I don’t like to see lesbian women embracing each other. It is offensive. I am sure that there are or were things about me that was or is equally repulsive to others We do have to get past our sensitivities to reach the lost.

  3. Ben Blais says

    The biggest problem that i see…is a lack if understanding what love is…Love IS correction..and love IS NOT sinful…so that being truth…homosexual love is not real love…but Lust or passion…both of which are centered in the flesh…real Love is centered in the spirit..and is a gift of God…i love all men…i do not accept sinful behavior..i do not condone it anymore than i would adultery…or sex out of wedlock..and the bible tells us “do not be deceived, bad company corrupts good morals”..so i will not live in friendship with those who choose to live in sin..i will not abuse or belittle them either…but one cant come to repentance…if one believes that what they do is right or just…and standing with them..only solidifys their beliefs…God is good!

    • Robert W. says

      From your statement I assume you are not gay and have no gay friends, so how can you presume to know what two gay men feel for each other? You say you love all men, but your statement demonstrates contempt for those who believe different than yourself. God speaks differently to each person through the Bible. Just ask a dozen people to read a chapter and ask what each sees as the most important message. You will get a dozen different answers. Fortunately, you don’t get to dictate what I believe and I reject both your definitions of sin and love. Although you are correct in one thing, love does come from God. Christianity is a very simple religion, accept Christ as your savior. If that is in your heart, God will make the changes He thinks are necessary. Not the ones you think are necessary.

    • Francis says

      Homosexual love is not real love? Even if you think homosexual behavior is sinful, many who have met homosexuals who are in relationships may not agree but have had to admit there was love there. However, there are heterosexual relationships built on lust as well.

    • matt says

      Ben, You are absolutely 100% on par with SCRIPTURE. While I agree with the reply that Christianity is a simple religion at its common principle, John 3:16 and Romans 10: 9-10 we also know that Christ made it abundantly clear that we’d know them by their fruits. A good tree produces GOOD fruit and a bad tree bad fruit, the element here being FRUIT. Just as I can differentiate between a cactus and a orange tree, so can I discern between a person who is claiming to be a Christian but is engaging in anti-Christian behavior. Whether that behavior manifests itself as bitterness and name calling towards people who believe differently or whether that person is demonstrating sexual sins; homosexuality, fornication, adultery, lusts, etc. This is not to say that even a Christian cannot stumble and fall. Paul made it clear numerous times that while we were to strive towards sanctification we were going to falter and stumble along the way. However, there is a difference between falling into temptation and encouraging/accepting the continued behavior. I have family members who are drug addicts, I can differentiate between a person who does a drug once and someone who is a drug addict with no intent on changing their ways. When we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is our attorney and our substitute for all our failures. However, we have too many people thinking that I can go to church say a prayer, claim to be a Christian and go out and do whatever I did before. I’m sorry, but that isn’t salvation that’s delusion. Falling in love requires action and it’s transformative. A person who truly loves acts differently, behaves differently and lives differently. If Christ is truly in me then I am a new creation. It doesn’t mean that if I was a drug addict before I’m suddenly not one any longer, although I’ve seen that happen too. I does mean however I am now free from the bondages of sin, I am a new creation and old things are past away and all things are become new. Like a person in LOVE I want to do what advances the ministry of the person I love, Jesus Christ. I want to emulate the person I love, Jesus Christ. I want to endeavor to remove everything from my image that is not in his image. If I am not doing those things then my Christianity is but a label and a membership to a Church Countryclub….

  4. matt says

    I found this by way of an alleged “Christian” survey and have to say my heart grieves today. As Christians, we are commanded to love one another and to love the people of the world. But if a person is engaged in either homosexuality, bigamy, polygamy or any other sort of sexually abhorrent lifestyle I am not told to “agree” with them when they are overtly and continually practicing it. Paul wrote much of the New Testament and in a multitude of letters he disciplined the Church, chastened them even. He did this, not in anger, but OUT of love. The first several chapters of Revelation show Christ judging and condemning the CHURCH. Look, I LOVE my children, but when they are engaged in a behavior that is potentially dangerous I have a responsibility to correct them BECAUSE I love them. While I do agree that there are individuals who profess to be Christians and they see it as their responsibility to ONLY judge in anger with a sort of “fire and brimstone” bravado, I don’t see that as being the majority of professing Christians today. The ones that are are the squeaky hinge and so get the attention. Sadly enough, many of our Churches have become social clubs and are so ensnared by the cares of life that the love OF the THINGS of this world have choked their relationship with Christ. If anything, I see a frightening and damaging wind blowing across this nation (America). Many of the sanctuaries now welcome almost anyone, not in love to do the work Christ commissioned us to do (seek and SAVE the lost) but instead with this kind of “we don’t care what you are or what you do as long as you just love everybody” attitude. The sad truth is, these churches are “loving” people right to hell. It’s not “love” if I see a person about to walk off a cliff and when they ask me if they should keep going this way and I tell them SURE because I don’t want to “offend” them. Please, PLEASE, PLEASE if you see me about to walk off a cliff TELL ME I’M ABOUT TO WALK OFF THE CLIFF AND DIE. I may get upset that you “judged” me unfit to read signs, read a map or follow a GPS but I’ll get over it eventually. Western culture has taken the notion of acceptance to a whole new low. Not as individuals but as choices in lifestyle, particularly SEXUAL lifestyle. We have lots of people today who can’t quote John 3:16 but they know that Jesus said “judge not” and they are happy to quote that. Of course, that flies in the face of the dozens of references TO judgment later in scripture. In Matthew 5, we are commanded to be both SALT AND LIGHT to the world. Interestingly enough, salt was an extremely valuable commodity in the time of Christ’s ministry and served many uses. It was used in medicine, in preserving meat, in cooking and even as a universal barter commodity. It had VALUE, a purpose and an intent. There is something else salt is good for, letting you know when you have a cut, scrape, scratch or skin injury. Anyone who has ever been in the ocean after having so much as a paper cut can attest to this fact, IT BURNS. I don’t believe a better comparison exists than what Christ chose (how ironic that he chose it and light). Along the same lines as salt we have LIGHT. Light serves as a guide, a way OUT of darkness and a way to find help. Light and salt both fit Christ’s parallel so perfectly, both of them can be used to help someone who is hurting or injured. Ever tried to treat a patient in the dark? Doesn’t work well. We were commanded to be different, if Christ chose salt and light it meant that the contrast he was making was of a world that was hurt and in the dark. Sadly, we have a lot of people today who are content in their darkness. As soon as there is any attempt at illumination they hide from it behind cries and accusation of Christians simply being “intolerant” of their lifestyle. They tell me as a Christian I should just “love” them as they are and yet they fail to understand that with love comes a responsibility. Love is not passive, it’s active it’s a verb and requires action. To LOVE someone requires a demonstration on my part, there is NO such thing as passive love. Love is not an emotion, it’s a demonstration of the choice I’ve made inside of me. Christ demonstrated this so clearly and even stated it when he said, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man life his life down for his friends.” John 15:13. If I say I LOVE you and I see you are doing something that can destroy both your body AND your soul and choose NOT to tell you or act, then I do NOT love you. If I SAY I love you and see that you are about to drink a bottle of Drano then, I’m sorry if you are offended but, I will do everything in my power to remove the bottle of Drano from your hands PERIOD. You can hate me, call me intolerant of suicide or whatever you wish but I will do everything in my power to save your life. How much more so should I be moved to act then when the issue involves the heart and soul and where you will spend eternity? I WILL NOT LOVE A PERSON INTO HELL just because it was convenient or I wanted to be labeled “tolerant” by others. While I do not and will not advocate the use of rude obscenities, vulgarities or slanderous language or any type of malicious speech toward another person (homosexual or not) we’ve reach a point that any type of condemnation of a lifestyle at all is now viewed “hate speech” by whomever is engaged in that behavior. Today, should I say that homosexuality, fornication, lust, adultery are sins, those who are either; gay, living together, sleeping with multiple people, swinging, cheating, be they homosexual OR heterosexual are going to say I’m “Hate mongering.” No, I’ve stated a fact. One which I would likely follow up with, “but GOD has a better way for your life if you will turn your life over to him.” Then I would add, “Christ KNEW you were a sinner when he came to die for your sins and MINE and in his eyes whether it’s homosexuality or a man lusting over a woman’s picture on the internet, SIN is all the same. It separates us from HIS love and his plan for our life which is so much sweeter than anything we could imagine. HE loved us so much that even when we were yet sinners he died for us.” They myth is that somehow I cannot deliver a message of love that also identifies sin as a wedge between God and man. The myth also is that God is going to “save us” and then permit us to do whatever we were doing before and all is OK. If that is the case, then Christ’s atonement offers no transformative properties to the new believer and is little more than an inside feel good, I’m OK your OK kind of nothing. I’m sorry, but I know when I mess up, I know when I sin. The Holy Spirit convicts me and tears me up inside over it. No man can serve two masters, he will either love one and hate the other or despise one and cling to the other. Either I’m going to conform to my lusts or I’m going to be transformed by the renewing spirit of the power of GOD in my life. I’ve got to tell you, when he reveals sin as sin I have a responsibility to acknowledge it as such and to take action. I’ve heard the argument that “you cannot choose WHO you are in love with.” Even if that WERE true I could still say this, I can certainly choose who I’m having sex with! Sex is not about LOVE, it’s about biology and reproduction. If you think sex is about love then you’ve obviously never met people who have sex with multiple partners, do they LOVE them all? What about swinger clubs, do they LOVE everyone they are having sex with? NO! Sex is biological, it is emotional but sex is not love! We’ve twisted sex to fit this idea in western culture that whomever you have sex with or are attracted to sexually means you are in “love” with that person. That’s is a lie fed to us from the father of lies, please excuse my directness here. I have many people who are friends of mine, co-workers and even a couple former supervisors who were openly gay, lesbian or bisexual. I can attest that overwhelmingly what I seen from them mirrored the same twisted dynamic that is being applied to sexual relationships in the heterosexual community. That twist being that there is a connection between attraction, love and sex. Sorry, but you do NOT have to have any of the former for the latter to come into play. I can have sex with someone I’m attracted to or NOT attracted to. I can have sex with a person I LOVE or a person I have no amorous feelings towards. I do not have to either be attracted to or LOVE the person with whom I am engaging in intercourse with. If I can do these things in the absence of love then perhaps there’s more to a relationship than whom I’m sexually attracted to… Let me illustrate for a moment if I may. I grew up raised by my grandparents. I knew my mother but she was not a part of my life for several early years. She and my father were divorced when I was young. Several years later however she remarried and had a daughter, my half-sister. Mandy (my half sister) was about six years younger than I. My mom’s new husband ended up getting divorced after being married for about five years. Following the divorce my mom moved out of state and I went for several years without seeing Mandy. Occasionally we would be able to see one another and I always enjoyed the few times I could. She and I were a lot alike and got along very well. Years went by between visits though and then life just kind of kept everyone so busy that even when we both became adults and lived within driving distance we still never spent much time together. Years later I got married and started my life with my wife and all was well for several years. Something happened though, after years of not really seeing my half sister we started to spend some time together. We started becoming closer and it felt good. We had been deprived of nearly two decades of time that we would have been together had things been different. One night though I woke up and realized something, I felt I was falling in “love” with Mandy. But I couldn’t be, I’m a happily married CHRISTIAN man. I’m a good guy, good guys don’t fall in LOVE with their sister, that’s just gross. I was sick with myself for feeling this way. However, I couldn’t help the way I felt, I LOVED her and needed to know if she felt the same way. About two weeks later I was at a friend’s house for dinner and she was there. My wife had to leave to go home and Mandy offered to drive me home if I wanted to stick around for a while. The drive from my friend’s place to mine was short and we talked mostly small talk. When we reached my house we sat in my driveway and talked for a long time. I soooo wanted to tell her how I felt inside about her. When it came time to say good night I remember giving her a hug as she was about to leave and it felt like fire in my lips as I almost out of the blue kissed her. We didn’t kiss though, she didn’t even know I almost had. I remember walking to the house kicking myself for what could have easily be done. She came by, with her boyfriend, a couple months later though and I could tell that she wanted to tell me something but wanted to do it in private. I sensed in my spirit that she was having feelings too but had committed in my mind I would not allow those feelings for either of us to manifest so I would not allow myself to be alone with her again. Later that year I had to move across country because of a job transfer. I never told anyone about these feelings but they were still there, deep inside festering like a infected wound on my soul. I prayed, I prayed, I studied scripture and still locked away I knew they were there. A decade went by from the time those feelings first made themselves known and the day I finally healed. Desperate for an answer I started searching everywhere for everything I could to identify what and why I was feeling this way. As a rational person there must be a rational explanation, physically, chemically, psychologically, etc. When I begin to dig, the feelings again to resurface and grow. It was like letting a prisoner out of isolation and setting him free and he had no intent of going back inside. I searched for stories of brother-sister relationships, common factors, etc. Finally, I came across something I never had heard of…. GSA – Genetic Sexual Attraction and the Westermarck Effect. I read story after story of brothers and sisters, step siblings, half siblings, etc who were split up young and then reunited as adults. While Mandy and I were not split up as young as some of the couples I read about, we were nonetheless in a position where we did not spend much time together as children should have to bond properly. When these couple I read about would meet later in life they shared so many things in common that they would feel like “soul mates” and get swept up in the emotion. I (and likely she too) was feeling an attraction that was extremely powerful due not to some form of being “in love” with her as a mate but because she and I were denied the chance to identify with one another properly as brother and sister and to develop the appropriate kind of love for a brother – sister relationship today (Westermarck Effect). Those who fall victim to GSA will oftentimes destroy their marriage, family, break incest laws and more just to be together. To a person who has never felt it, it is an indescribable attraction. However, within a week of the time I understood the REAL reason why I felt the way I did I was cured. I didn’t feel in “love” with her because she was my soul mate or because I was born to fall in love with my sister. I felt that way because of an attraction that stemmed partly from a trauma induced earlier in life, being separated at a young age and being deprived of a natural brother-sister relationship. Let me add that yes, I earlier said cured, because GSA infects a perfectly sane and rational person like an illness. I thank GOD every day that he allowed me to finally find the answer to what plagued me for so long. I’ve often asked why I had to endure it and I believe now that it was to teach me a lesson. I KNOW the power that attraction can hold on a person. I know the difficulty that some people face when it feels like they just HAVE to be with someone that they are attracted to. I also know the healing power that Christ can bring in knowing truth and setting people free. He allowed me to endure it, cause I was fully capable OF enduring it. I didn’t think so then, but I know so now. Today my feelings for her are gone in that way. I love my sister AS a sister. She is a great person who I respect and wish her and her fiance the happiest life together. In spite of our journey we both ended up ok. I look around at the family GOD has blessed me with and thank him daily for not allowing me to fall off into the PIT of what would have been a disaster. I now know that a person CAN control who they fall in love with, who they have sex with and what they consider to be acceptable. I’m sad to say however that there are MANY couples comprised of brother-sister relationships today because of divorce tearing them apart and genetic sexual attraction playing with their heads later in life. I’m also sad to report that the same GSA that is responsible for a growing number of brother-sister sexual relationships is also responsible for a growing number of parent lost-child relationships comprised of mother-son, father-daughter and even some same-sex sibling and parent-child relationships… Had I fallen into the PIT of GSA and allowed my lusts to blossom I could have been approached in Love by someone close to me to show me that I was wrong and engaging in a behavior that was destructive to my family, my home, my wife and even my sister. They could have showed be scriptures to guide me in love and truth to the healing mercy and grace of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I may have told them they were being “incestiphobic” or intolerant of me and just hated I was finally happy. However, they would have fulfilled the command in scripture to when a brother falls away try to restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Galatians 6:1 Now let’s contrast this with the just “love them approach” and see how it would have worked out. Let’s say that I left my wife to be with my sister Mandy and after she and I were together a few years we decided we wanted to go to a church and we found an “open” church that just told everyone to “love” each other. My marriage would be in shambles, my family in disarray, I’d be with my sister in a sexual relationship, and I’d be lost. Everyone in the church being so open to anything would be “loving” us straight to hell. Wide is way that lead to destruction and I’m afraid that many churches today are the gateway. Some are so because of their spirit of condemnation of the sinner others because they fail to condemn the sin. We are commanded to be different from the world and I’m sorry but there is a difference between true LOVE and the overtly condoning and accepting of sin. We are commanded to abhor that which is evil and love that which is good. I’m afraid if we don’t begin to set ourselves apart and sanctify and rend our hearts, we may stand before GOD and maybe he’ll let us hear the names of all the souls we personally “loved” into hell because we were afraid of telling them the truth. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Matthew 7:13

    • Robert W. says

      First, I hope you are not in a loveless marriage. That would be sad. But part of your writings sound that way. I agree that sex can be just biology, especially in a one night stand. However, sex in humans is more than just biology and reproduction. Most animals only have sex when the female is fertile and receptive. Humans can have sex at any time. That’s because sex in humans is part of the pair bond. The hormones released strengthen the ties between a couple and helps hold them together for the long term. Gays and lesbians form that bond readily with members of the same sex and have considerable difficulty (if possible at all) forming it with the opposite sex. I really appreciate your story about your attraction to your sister. I know how hard it is to write something like that. It’s very similar to coming out. However, it is NOT the same sort of thing. You were attracted to one specific person and you knew that it would ultimately be bad for you in a lot of ways, not just sinful. I’ve been tempted to stray from my partner as well. This is resisting the temptation to be with a single person. Imagine that half of the people on the planet are your sisters. They are the only ones you are attracted to. The other half don’t interest you sexually at all. You can’t even be aroused by them without thinking of one of your sisters. If you can imagine that, you might have a small glimpse of what it is to gay. As far as all homosexuality as sin, I consider this a grave misunderstanding of scripture. I don’t believe it and neither does my church. I have a lot more to say on that topic but it will take long time to write so that will have to do for now.

      • Kirk says

        Robert, you have missed the point of Matt’s long discourse; the point wasn’t whether or not that he is in a ”loveless’ marriage, that is a distraction. If any person is living in habitual sin, as I John 3:9 & other scriptures state. That includes habitual homosexual, pornographic, fornicating or adulterous relationships, as well as rage, slander, lying, witchcraft, etc. All such unconfessed sins will cause us all to suffer eternal banishment from the New Jerusalem coming to a new heaven/new earth. To teach anything else, is false teaching and will lead each of us to destruction. True love must include this aspect of banishment from God because as Revelation 22 states, no “unclean’ thing will enter through the gates of the new Jerusalem.

        • Matt says

          Kirk, You are correct. While my marriage during most of this was far from the most “loving example” of marriage it was nonetheless a marriage (a covenant) between my wife and I. Sin is sin. Sexual attraction has the power to lead us to justify our behavior regardless of the truth of whether or not the behavior is either healthy physically or spiritually. I was attracted to my sister in a powerful way that even I can not comprehend. It wasn’t an issue of being un-attracted to half the population but being so to 99.99999999 of the population… I initially was disgusted by my attraction. I knew in my spirit it was wrong. After a while however the attraction grew more strong and I began to look for ways to justify it. I ultimately had one of two choices, engage in it or eradicate it. From the stories I read when I chose the latter I found that the majority of people simply gave in to it and were living “happily” except of course that they were breaking the law in many countries, engaging in a sexual relationship that had the potential for harming both them AND any offspring, tearing their marriages apart, tearing their other family’s lives apart, etc. The men and women who gave in to GSA “felt” it was “natural” and even a few thought it was “God’s will” for them. When we feel a strong emotional bond to someone we will defend it, protect it and fight for its preservation whether that bond is healthy or not. Yet somewhere deep inside we know the truth. That’s the reality. We know the truth! It’s never easy to do what is right. Homosexuality, fornication, adultery, incest are all sexual sins. One is not elevated above the other nor below the other. Sin is sin. The reality is, no matter how we try to window dress it, the truth remains. We try to reconcile God to accommodate our sin by matter of “reason” that what we are doing isn’t “sin” on a technicality. We are like lawyers trying to justify our clients innocence in hopes of them being granted acceptance and approval in spite of their sin. While society may devolve to accommodate a person engaging in incest, homosexuality, etc, God’s word has not and will not and neither will his law. One day I’m going to stand before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. One day I’m going to stand in his presence, the CREATOR of the universe. On THAT day, I want to hear “well done.” Not because of what I did in myself, after all I can’t even walk without him holding my hand. It is only by his grace I will be able to stand in his presence. It is only by his mercy I can be redeemed and it is in his holiness and his righteousness I will stand when I stand before him. We should not strive to try to justify our sin but instead strive to live blameless, worthy to bear his name worthy to be called the Sons and Daughters of God.

    • Kirk says

      Matt, awesome post; I also have had several friends who were either practicing homosexuals or struggled with same sex attraction. From my observation, many ‘gays’ were abused when they were so little that they have no memory of the abuse (typically from someone they were close to). Due to the abuse, an evil spirit of sexual immorality was able to enter into the child and planted seeds of same sex attraction, susceptibility towards fornication, adultery, pornography, etc. Satan doesn’t play fair, and due to the Fall, he has had legal access to abuse and oppress even babies and little children. I have dealt with several people who were demonized and there are many levels to this; some are delivered when they are healed spiritually at a very deep level, and do not need deliverance. Others need deliverance, but with that they had better receive Christ & be filled with the Spirit otherwise, as Jesus said, ‘other evil spirits will come into that ‘swepted’ house and make their situation worse than before.

      • Robert W. says

        Kirk, I didn’t miss the point. I disagreed with the assertion that homosexuality is sinful. The view of homosexuality you express above is neither biblical nor scientific. The abuse hypothesis has been thoroughly rejected. It appears to me that you are justifying to yourself your interpretation of scripture (note I said interpretation, not the scripture itself) that is increasingly in conflict with the real world. Before I accepted the fact that I am gay and realized that God did not “abhor” me for being as he made me, I hated myself and there was a barrier between myself and God because of that. Now that I can accept and love myself, I am open to God’s love as well. I am closer to Him and can feel Him working in my life like never before. Sin can’t do that. Sin is the barrier between us and God.

        • R. Brad White says

          Robert, Here are some verses to read and consider on the topic of whether Homosexuality is a sin in God’s eyes. (all from the new testament) Romans 1:24-27 1 Corinthians 6:9-20 1 Timothy 1:8-11 Jude 1:7 (which refers to Sodom. For context on Sodom, and why it’s relevant to this verse, read genesis 19:1-13 God still loves the man or woman with same sex attractions, but I think these verses are clear on the topic. But let me know what you think after reading them.

          • Robert W. says

            Brad, I’m quite familiar with those verses. I’ve studied them from alternative viewpoints and alternative interpretations of the original Greek and Hebrew. The cultural and historical aspect is important. What problems existed that the authors were trying to address? What lessons were they trying to teach? Without that context, it’s very easy to put the wrong meanings on the words. I’m not going to put my conclusions on here verse by verse. I’d prefer that others reevaluate them and draw their own conclusions. I will say that I see homosexual sex as no more and no less sinful than heterosexual sex, it should be in a relationship that is equivalent to marriage. I’m not alone in drawing conclusions like this. This is why denominations are altering their view and can even endorse gay marriage. It wouldn’t be the first time the common understanding of what the bible says was wrong. It won’t be the last. Think about what I have said, that gays are God’s creation as well. You might also consider that millions of men have prayed fervently to be changed. To my knowledge none have had their underlying orientation changed (a few become satisfied with celibacy or even a heterosexual relationship but usually eventually revert). Why is that? Why does God not answer a fervent plea for change made in full faith positively?

          • Robert W. says

            Brad, I have a question for you. Even considering the statement from Jude (perversion is a very broad category), I don’t see where homosexuality enters into the Sodom story at all. Where do you see it?

        • Kirk says

          Hello Robert: I appreciate your reply, and I obviously cannot comment on your personal relationship with God thru Christ; that is only between you & Him. I am in total agreement with you that our fractured and broken society desperately needs mature & loving believers to mentor & disciple young people in particular. Churches in general have nearly universally failed to disciple/mentor seekers & new converts, resulting in a very shallow non-biblical faith. I wanted to address a couple of your points regarding your claim that the ‘abuse hypothesis’ has been thoroughly rejected. In reality, no formal study could ever claim to have interviewed all the people worldwide who have been involved in deliverance and/or inner healing ministries, to confirm or deny a declared homosexual individual was indeed set free. As you are aware, there are several ministries that do counsel and/or practice inner healing or deliverance, and there are many testimonies of people who state their orientations and desires indeed changed. I still believe & have seen striking changes in people after addressing demonic strongholds in peoples’ lives, whether there was a trauma suffered decades back when they were children, etc. In fact, I have witnessed and heard the testimonies of people who had bitterness strongholds in their lives that when they actually forgave the individual(s) who had hurt them deeply through words or actions, they felt completely free and healed. I still believe that there is a tremendous amount of abuse that is denied or goes unreported (e.g. extended or frequent deliberate touching/handling of genitals by a same sex person on an infant or little child), and that due to the perpetrator’s sin/lust, a demonic door of oppression, gender confusion, etc., can and does enter in to the innocent baby/child that manifests itself later, esp. in early puberty. I believe that this element of unforgiveness, bitterness and powerful demonic oppression in the lives of many gay men/women that truly & earnestly sought God to ‘heal’ or deliver them from their same sex desire, is the reason they do not see their prayers answered. Through the power of the Spirit, esp. through words of knowledge, wisdom, discerning of spirits, etc., a seasoned believer can discern what barriers need to be addressed (sexual, emotional/physical abuse, parental issues, neglect, etc)., and lead the individual in prayers of forgiveness for people, or reveal by the Spirit very early abuse that could not be remembered at very early ages or was blocked out, etc. Leading the sufferer in prayers of forgiveness, and then dealing directly with any evil spirits discerned (esp. spirits of sexual immorality of any kind), along with sincere repentance on the part of the individual, will lead to lasting deliverance and changes. I realize that you will likely completely reject this idea; however, if you truly do accept the scriptures of spiritual warfare (Ephesians 6, etc), you must concede that satan and his demons are active in stealing, killing & destroying” as Jesus stated about the “thief’ (satan) in John 10:10.

          • Robert W. says

            Hi Kirk, First, I’d like to thank you for the respectful tone of your post. I’m on other conservative Christian sites as well as I think communication is important and sometimes they can get to me. It’s been a particularly tough week and I apologize if I was short. I do believe that Satan is active in the world but I’m also a scientist so that colors my viewpoint as much as my Christianity does. I don’t look for demons where there are scientific explanations. People frequently have unresolved anger and fear issues. If you consider those demons, I won’t dispute you. God can help in either case. I have my own experience with anger. I felt I had been terribly wronged and carried this anger for couple of years. I knew I needed to forgive but could not. I was at my mother’s bedside when she passed and the pastor was leading us in the Lord’s Prayer. When we reached “as we forgive those” I prayed with all my heart that God take it from me. I distinctly heard a voice say “then give it to me.” I did and immediately felt the weight lift. The anger sometimes returned over the next year or so, but each time I did the same thing and it disappeared. The person I was angry at (no, this was never a gay relationship) and I are now very good friends again. So I fully recognize the healing power God in these matters. When I say abuse has been discredited as playing a role in sexual orientation, I’m referring to scientific studies and the opinion of the American Psychological Association. Let me define some terms. Sexual orientation is the basic attraction you feel to other people. Most are attracted to the opposite sex, some are attracted to both sexes and some to the same sex. Sexual identity is how you think of yourself. This may be the same as your orientation or different. All the evidence I’m aware of points to sexual orientation being a basic trait determined during early development. I am right handed. I have brown hair. I am gay. These are all very similar statements. I can’t change the fact that my basic attraction is to the same sex anymore than I can change the color of my hair. I could dye my hair another color but it will come back in brown. Sexual identity is similar to dying your hair. At one time, I thought of myself as heterosexual, primarily because I was brought up to think of myself that way. Then for some time, I thought of myself as bisexual. Finally I acknowledged to myself I was gay. So my identity shifted over time, but my orientation has always been same sex. What objective research has been done, indicates that sexual orientation develops early and is fixed for life. When I say there is no change, I’m referring to orientation, not identity. You mention that many men say that they changed and I acknowledge that they do indeed say that. They really want to change and they report positively that they have. But when you go back and check on them some time later, they have not really changed. Google ex-ex-gay to find information from men who have gone through this. Sean Santos has a very good critique of the ex-gay movement on the “Are homosexuals born that way” thread so I won’t repeat it here. I will note especially though that a former leader of Exodus has admitted a 99.9% failure rate. Ex-gay treatment doesn’t work. Further, many of the men who go through ex-gay treatment become depressed and have to be treated for that. They also have elevated rates of suicide. Is this the work of God? Karl I really don’t mean to offend you. I know you are honestly trying to help people. But if I see the work of Satan anywhere, it is in the warping of Christ’s Church to mistreat LGBT people in the name of helping them.

        • Tim says

          Robert, I appreciate the respectful tone of your posts as well. First question, are you willing to change? If you are not willing to change, or don’t see the need for it I am convinced that no amount of Biblical input will institute change against your will. The thing that will institute change is brokenness. If you continue to seek the Lord and are sincere in your efforts, you will be broken. As far as sodomy is concerned, the Scriptures state that our LORD (in Genesis 18:20) found that the cry of Sodom was very great and the sin very “grievous”. If you read through chapter 19 you will find that the sin our LORD was addressing was and is sodomy, specifically sex with someone of the same gender. It is very clear. Lot offers his daughters and they were rejected. You will notice, if you look honestly at this passage that Lot’s daughters were both married. Verse 4 of 19 states that every man from every home was outside that door wanting the two men (apparently to them, in reality they were messengers of the LORD or the LORD Himself). Later, when Lot is asked if he has any one else in the city besides those in his home, he goes out to his sons in law. They laughed and mocked him when he warned them. You will also find that Lot’s married daughters were still virgins when they left. Sodom was so infected with this sin that the men no longer wanted the women. You need to remember the first time you engaged in the sin you are defending. You were clearly convicted that it was wrong; that is what the Holy Spirit does. It was Him and you know that. By returning to the sin, you willingly chose the bondage you are now in. It is hard to break as you cannot see as clearly as when that conviction was fresh. When you sense discrimination in the church, in some cases you are spot on. This is because many in the churches have what I call acceptable sin levels and because they are more repulsed by sodomy they tend to be very rigid regarding that particular sin and more acceptable of others. I pray that you find your way.

      • Tim says

        Kirk and Matt, I agree that Matt’s post was a good one, a little long but heartfelt obviously. Kirk you make a very good point regarding the abuse. I have found that when someone is abused as a child, the result is spiritual oppression. This does not mean the person is possessed, but definitely oppressed. I have at times been able to discern that someone had been abused by actually seeing the spirit (long story, I won’t go into it). The reason it was revealed to me was that the LORD later had me pray for the very young victim and she was delivered from the oppression. If she would have grown up with that spirit, and would have yielded to the sin (by acting on her perverted attraction in that case, sex outside of marriage) she would have been brought into bondage. She is now married happily and living out her walk and growth in the LORD.

        • Kirk says

          Tim, thanks for your post; I think no matter how much research is conducted into same sex attraction, that the bottom line is much of it is due to physical, emotional & spiritual trauma, that unfortunately allows the enemy of us all to come in and begin an oppressive process that often results in gender confusion, sexual immorality, etc., at puberty. A lesbian or gay then becomes ‘locked’ into and convinced of his/her identity. I agree that much spiritual gifts are needed for healing & deliverance for this very complex issue, including counseling, use of spiritual gifts such as discerning of spirits, words of knowledge/wisdom, prophetic words, etc. Leading the oppressed person in forgiving those who did them wrong is also critical to any healing, and I think it is often an unlooked factor.

      • Matt says

        Kirk, Thank you for the comment. It was a very difficult post to write and the first time I’ve ever shared the story. I also know a number of people who too were sexually abused as children and were also homosexual. I do know some that were not abused, however many of the co-workers and acquaintances I have talked with and were homosexual WERE abused either physically, emotionally or sexually. A niece of mine has three friends who are either lesbians or bi-sexual and all three were sexually, physically or emotionally abused by the men in their mother’s lives. None of them came from “happy” homes. That is not to say that all of the people I have talked to shared that history. I also know several lesbians who as far as I know were never abused, that is not to say that they were NOT just that I’m not aware of them ever sharing a story of such abuse. As for the allegation that Robert raised that this has been “dis-proven” there are a number of studies which indicate otherwise. Further, the “studies” intended to “disprove” the hypothesis often fail to account for factors outside of molestation and/or rape. Emotional trauma, absence of an active father, physical abuse, etc can all leave scars on the child which can manifest themselves all sorts of ways later in life. When you couple that with a “church” that fails to love and minister to these children, a church ill-equipped to answer the challenges these children often bring and a “body” that is too busy to engage them and what do we expect of them? Has anyone not noticed the massive “swell” of people identifying themselves as “gay or lesbian”? Why is that? It’s almost become fashionable in some circles to be “gay” now. We have more people than ever trying to justify it, trying to not only bring acceptance to the lifestyle but also to demand that others condone it and approve of it even. It would be like me trying to demand that society accept my relationship with my sister as being “natural” and “healthy”. We are commanded to be salt and light in the world. If we are incapable of being either, we are useless. We don’t have to be mean in our discussion but I will say that God’s word is like a sword, even if you wield it gently, it still cuts! It is a lamp unto our feet and a light to our path and even if you don’t shine it in the eyes of those in darkness they are still going to be blinded by his light. When we share God’s word in love and truth it should be revealing and liberating but for those who do not want to be freed from their chains it is a dangerous weapon that must be silenced or dulled at all cost. So many today want to reconcile God’s word with THEIR lifestyle in order to justify the sin. In sin their is no justification. Justification can only be wrought by faith in Jesus Christ. Amen and Peace be unto you. Sincerely, Matt

  5. whodatperson2 says

    I can honestly say that I know NOBODY who hates homosexuals. I know plenty who disagree with the lifestyle and stand on biblical truth who are called haters, but nobody who hates anyone.

  6. Linde says

    So, what do you do with their sin? Paul said the law is our schoolmaster. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. The old way of “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life” has produced more false Christians than the aisle walk. I can love the sinner all day long but unless he is freed from his sin, he will die in his sins and go to a Godless eternity. He will not be comforted there knowing I had loved him. The person in the video had a great opportunity to tell gay man about the judgement of God on all sinners, not just gay people. He could tell him that the best way for a Christian to show him love is to show him the God of the bible who hates sin and will NOT be party to it. Then present the good news, what did God do for us to free us from sin. Sen his own son Jesus for payment of sin and even though it is a free gift of grace, it will cost you your sin. You can no longer walk in the darkness of sin. For other “Christians” who hate those who are LGBT, I wouldn’t be able to answer for them, other than to say, just because people call themselves Christian doesn’t mean they are. A mean spirit is not a spirit that knows God.

  7. Lori says

    Ever think of using your God-given authority in Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost and CASTING OUT THOSE THINGS THAT ARE NOT OF GOD? If you are born again in Jesus Christ, and have the baptism of the Holy Ghost, you have the POWER of God backing you! Set the captives free. Ephesians. Read Ephesians. The battle is never with flesh and blood….Know the Love of Christ that you may be filled with the fullness of GOD. Perfect love casts out fear. Much sin is rooted in FEAR. Fear is not from GOD. Lead them to Jesus. The Real Jesus–the One Who Saves each person individually with His love. When you are truly His, He will convict you of all that is not of Him…and He will lead you on the path He wants you to go..following HIM, not yourself, not the world, not your sin, but HIM. You in Him, Him in you… Greater is Jesus Christ in you than he who is in this world… unsurpassed complete and total JOY and PEACE always when you are HIS–it’s never found elsewhere! :)

  8. Matt Hopkins says

    HOMOPHOBIA: I am a first timer to your website, and while I am in complete support of your stance on homosexuality and how the church and believers should relate to gay folk, I am stunned at your use of the word “Homophobia”. This word is hate speech, it is a verbal bullet created by the pro-gay community to shoot at folks who reject homosexuality. A phobia is an irrational fear… a mental illness. In short it is a way of saying: “If you disagree with me you are sick”. In addition, it does not exist. There is no such mental disorder and of course if there was it would be wildly inappropriate to use it as the gay community and you have used it on your website. If there really were people who had such a disorder then using the word as you do here and as gay folks use it would be akin to the way “Retarded” was used as pejorative term on the play ground of my elementary school. Only MD’s should use such terms and can use such terms, and no MD would use this made up term.

    • Kirk says

      Matt, very good points; I too, was taken aback by the use of the term ‘homophobia,’ as it is a loaded perjorative term in the secular world, (esp. against Christians). Yes, as Robert has stated, there is still hatred (and esp. fear) towards homosexual men & women, but this ‘phobia’ word use as you say is a clinical psychological term, and is completely incorrectly used by gays & the media. Christians who actually hate & fear homosexuals as people created in the image of God need to repent of that, as we need to do for any issue of hate, bitterness or fear.

      • Robert W. says

        While we’re talking about terminology, we generally prefer not to be called “homosexuals.” We aree not our sexuality and that is more a label Christian groups applied to us. We generally prefer gay, lesbian for the women or LGBT people is you want refer to whole spectrum. I won’t call you homophobic if you don’t call me homosexual. Deal?

        • Anonymous says

          I can use the term ‘gay,’ Robert. My only issue with the word is that it was once a light hearted joyful English word related to happiness or joyful attitude, etc. Now, it’s been completely taken over by a special interest group, so that meaning is almost completely gone. However, I am willing to use the term gay.

          • Robert W. says

            I appreciate that. I actually agree with you on the word. I don’t know how it came to be used this way but it’s what we have. It is my profound hope that one day we can abandon these labels and just be “those two guys who live up the street.” Right now though, we need a way to identify ourselves as part of a group. (Kirk, I know I owe you an answer. It’s going to take more time than I have right now.)

        • Kirk says

          Hello Robert: like you I am a scientist by profession (environmental), and work for a state agency. I also was a missionary for many years overseas in Muslim lands. I have encountered many demonized people over the years (the word ‘possession’ is an incorrect translation of that Greek word). I think it’s wonderful that you were able to forgive that individual, and had the Lord speak to you. Regarding the abuse hypothesis, as you term it, could you send a link to these ‘scientific studies’ you cite that claim to discredit this? As I stated earlier, it is impossible to fully discredit this, unless these researchers had interviewed ALL worldwide who have practiced such prayers/deliverance for people with same sex attractions—and it would need to be conducted over several years with these same people, and to be objective, be a ‘double blind’ type test. No way. In general, I take social science research testing with a grain or two of salt due to the fact that these ‘sciences’ are difficult to objectify, since much of the testing is based on subjective answers that an individual may give at any particular point in time, based on their ‘subjective feelings.’ It isn’t like conducting the double blind testing using the scientific method within the ‘hard’ sciences, such as biology, chemistry, physics, etc. Regarding Exodus and the past leader’s admission of a “99.0%” failure rate. That may or may not be true, partly depending on what ‘ax’ this man has to grind with the organization. He may be badmouthing it as a group because of broken relationships, etc. etc. Failure of treatment doesn’t also necessarily mean a failure on the methodology. Exodus may also lack a critical component in their counseling; that of deep reliance on the Spirit bathed in prayer with discerning of spirits, etc. etc. I am not directly familiar with their methods. It is undeniably true that there are a certain % of people with homosexual desires that is genetically based (i.e., an extra Y chromosomne, etc.,), that actually makes such individuals a composite gender genetically.

          • Robert W. says

            Kirk, I’m sorry to take so long to get back to you. Life intervened. First, I’m going to have to take back what I said on abuse. When I went back and reread my source, it didn’t say what I thought it did. The APA leaves the door open on abuse based primarily on 2 papers. One of these papers has been called into question as the data do not support the conclusions. Neither of these show cause and effect however. Does the abuse contribute to orientation or do gay children tend to draw more abuse? This hypothesis also does not explain the very large number of gays, like myself with no history of abuse. The evidence is convincing that sexual orientation is biologically determined early in development. Gay men have a number of traits, some physical and some neurological, which are feminized compared to straight men. Lesbian women are similarly masculinized. These traits are determined in the developing fetus or no later than early infancy. This work is summarized in the book “Gay, Straight and the Reason Why.” It is clear that sexual orientation is a biological trait, a phenotype. I have brown hair. I am right handed. I am gay. These are all statements talking about the same type of thing. Saying that God hates a gay man for loving another man is like saying God hates left handed people for writing with their left hand. It makes no sense and I do believe the Creator of the Universe makes sense. Like any other biological trait, there is little evidence it can be changed once set. So does psychology enter into it? Sure, we are taught intentionally and by example from a very early what sexual roles we are expected to fulfill. That’s strong programming. It becomes part of our identity. It’s important to remember when talking about this that women exhibit a greater flexibility in sexuality than men do. It is speculated that this is because women frequently need to adapt themselves to different social situations to ensure the survival of their children. So we are taught certain roles we are fulfill in our culture. This becomes our identity, how we think of ourselves. In the LGBT person, these roles are frequently in conflict with what we feel inside. This results in confusion which may be quickly resolved or can last a lifetime. My own confusion lasted a long time. I barely knew what being gay meant until my 20s. I had a fairly conservative upbringing and there were few out gay role models. I thought God hated me for having those impulses because the thought is the sin. You can repress them for a time but sooner later they always come out. When that confusion cleared for me, when I admitted to myself that I’m attracted to men and little if any to women, a huge burden that I hadn’t even realized was there lifted. Similarly, when I looked at those few passages that are considered to condemn homosexuality, I found they didn’t mean what my church taught. We are as God made us and God loves us just the way we are, even though we are different. Another huge burden was lifted. I can honestly say that I am happier, better adjusted and closer to God as a gay man than I ever was living in that confused state. So that brings us to the ex-gays. First, I see no absolute requirement from God to change. Some people may feel they are called to it, but such a calling has to come from within, from God, not outside pressure because your fellow Christians think it is wrong. Second, I see no evidence that any ex-gay treatment accomplishes a change in orientation. The psychological studies which have been done all have the same flaw, they use self reporting to determine change. This is notoriously unreliable as the subjects genuinely want to believe they have changed and express that. The problem is well pointed out here http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/sexandgender/5374/participant_discredits_the_original_ex-gay_study/ . By the way Throckmorton, the author, is an evangelical, a psychologist and a good source of information about the real effects of the ex-gay treatments. I only gave one example with the former Exodus leader and referred you to another discussion which it appears you didn’t read. Here is another from a former ex-gay minister http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2007/winter/coming-out . Many more are located here http://www.beyondexgay.com/Narratives/Barbara . In short, there are thousands of examples where ex-gay treatments DO NOT work, including many who were publicized as success stories and later returned to being gay (as in never really changed from). We don’t have to interview every person to see that the claims of success are false. The evidence is overwhelming. Rather, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate any real change. A well designed unbiased scientific study that objectively assesses subjects before during and after treatment with a long term followup is the only thing that might be accepted. Lastly, while there is no proven benefit, there are inherent dangers. These treatments can cause depression, anxiety and suicidality. This is from the executive review of a report to the APA found here http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf . The same report reinforces what I said above that there is no valid study that indicates real change. So what we (LGBTs) see when you (conservative Christians) demand change is that you are asking something which is 1. Not possible, 2. Not necessary, 3. Dangerous to our mental health. Is it any wonder that we reject your requirements? We can’t change and see no need to. You on the other hand can change and very much need to because it doesn’t matter if you are doing it out of hatred or love, you are hurting us in many ways.

    • Tim says

      For that matter, the word gay is also a word used to infer a more acceptable behavior. This is specifically why I use the Biblical term of sodomy. I do not use the terms “faggot” or “queer” because those words, like homophobia are used in spite and do not convey caring love. It is easy to be unbalanced either way.

      • Robert W. says

        Tim, I was going to respond to your Sodom post, you make several errors, until I saw this. Your term is NOT biblical. It originated in the 12th or 13th century and was applied to some priests. I consider it offensive and see no further reason to respond to you unless you care to apologize.

          • Robert W. says

            It is not the spirit of tolerance. I don’t have to tolerate hate and you are attempting to apply a hateful label to me. There can be no respectful conversation between us when you obviously don’t respect me.

          • Tim says

            There was no hate intended. I will not be manipulated by a marketing ploy to ease affirmation. The truth is you are choosing to be offended when I meant no offense, that is on you.

          • Robert W. says

            Tim, if you don’t intend hate, why do you insist on using a hate-filled word? Let me try to explain one last time. Words can have meanings acquired by their usage. This word has been used as term of persecution for hundreds of years. It was applied to a set of laws that violated privacy and relegated gay men to hiding in back alleys. Further, it is also derived from the name of the sin you THINK we are committing. Whenever you say this word, even to yourself, you can’t help but think of that sin. It is impossible to speak as equals if that is in your heart. Let me close with a similar example. I was raised in the south. There is a word that I’m sure everyone knows that was once used to describe black people. Many people I knew still used it. They would tell you that’s just the word they had always used and they would continue to use it. But you could tell when they used it that they still thought of black people as less than themselves. The blacks were rightly offended and I will not even use it here.

          • Anonymous says

            Robert, Tim, if you don’t intend hate, why do you insist on using a hate-filled word?It is only hate filled by your definition. As I told you, I am not hating you. You are responsible for choosing to be offended. I suspect (though I could be wrong) that the real issue here is that I am not affirming your claim that you are in right relationship with the Creator while you engage in behaviors that are clearly labeled an abomination in His writings. It was applied to a set of laws that violated privacy and relegated gay men to hiding in back alleys. Further, it is also derived from the name of the sin you THINK we are committing. Whenever you say this word, even to yourself, you can’t help but think of that sin. It is impossible to speak as equals if that is in your heart. The laws are not the problem, it is your behavior. We are equal in the sense that we are both born into a fallen world. We both have built into us a nature that will serve and worship something. We are not equal in that you are justifying your sin. While there are areas in my life (unfortunately) that are in need of redemption, I do not justify them, I want to be changed. From everything that I have seen from your writings, you have not come to a place of brokenness. You are twisting the Scriptures to fit your behavior instead of twisting your behavior to fit the Scriptures. Walking with the Lord is a violent act (the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force). Not the way we would think, but we are either violently acting against God, or we are violently acting against our own human nature, our sin nature. Yes, we all have a sin nature; which is why I do not debate whether or not someone is born a certain way. We are all born into some sort of wrong behavior. You may call this being judgmental ; it is. I am not afraid of righteous judgment, because with the Spirit’s help, I am not afraid to rightly judge myself. What I am not being is condemning; there is hope for you if you are willing to allow G-d to change you. If you continue throughout the course of your life to justify your sin, you are hopeless. It is up to you. Make no mistake I judge myself the exact same way. Our Creator has provided a way out of our sin, woe to us if we neglect so great a gift. The blacks were rightly offended and I will not even use it here.According to human nature yes they did. However, in the kingdom of G-d, no one has a right to be offended, but G-d Himself Jesus was not offended by those that killed Him. Here is a verse: great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them You have entered this forum claiming to be a part of the Kingdom of G-d, there is no place for a disciple being easily offended in the Kingdom.

        • Tim says

          Robert, Tim, if you don’t intend hate, why do you insist on using a hate-filled word?It is only hate filled by your definition. As I told you, I am not hating you. You are responsible for choosing to be offended. I suspect (though I could be wrong) that the real issue here is that I am not affirming your claim that you are in right relationship with the Creator while you engage in behaviors that are clearly labeled an abomination in His writings. It was applied to a set of laws that violated privacy and relegated gay men to hiding in back alleys. Further, it is also derived from the name of the sin you THINK we are committing. Whenever you say this word, even to yourself, you can’t help but think of that sin. It is impossible to speak as equals if that is in your heart. The laws are not the problem, it is your behavior. We are equal in the sense that we are both born into a fallen world. We both have built into us a nature that will serve and worship something. We are not equal in that you are justifying your sin. While there are areas in my life (unfortunately) that are in need of redemption, I do not justify them, I want to be changed. From everything that I have seen from your writings, you have not come to a place of brokenness. You are twisting the Scriptures to fit your behavior instead of twisting your behavior to fit the Scriptures. Walking with the Lord is a violent act (the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force). Not the way we would think, but we are either violently acting against God, or we are violently acting against our own human nature, our sin nature. Yes, we all have a sin nature; which is why I do not debate whether or not someone is born a certain way. We are all born into some sort of wrong behavior. You may call this being judgmental ; it is. I am not afraid of righteous judgment, because with the Spirit’s help, I am not afraid to rightly judge myself. What I am not being is condemning; there is hope for you if you are willing to allow G-d to change you. If you continue throughout the course of your life to justify your sin, you are hopeless. It is up to you. Make no mistake I judge myself the exact same way. Our Creator has provided a way out of our sin, woe to us if we neglect so great a gift. The blacks were rightly offended and I will not even use it here.According to human nature yes they did. However, in the kingdom of G-d, no one has a right to be offended, but G-d Himself Jesus was not offended by those that killed Him. Here is a verse: great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them You have entered this forum claiming to be a part of the Kingdom of G-d, there is no place for a disciple being easily offended in the Kingdom.

  9. Mark says

    About homosexuality and other sexual deviations. Personally, homosexuality is not an issue with me. I don’t think it is appropriate to discuss our sex lives with others whatever the type, with the exception of a counselor if needed. I have an issue with public displays of affection in general. I just don’t engage in it. It is inappropriate. As for others, they make their own choices. If someone asked me if I thought that unnatural same sex relations were on par with natural relations, my answer would be no, but you won’t hear me condemning anyone because I am not interested what you do in private…although if I saw two men going at it, I just may need a bucket!. In my experience,, the pleasures of the flesh have nothing to do with happiness or contentment anyway. To me, I am not my body. My body is a vessel..a vehicle, and I don’t identify with it. I don’t cater to it. Desires of the flesh are never really satisfied, they never bring any lasting anything. The senses are greedy for pleasures. The body barks for a bone, so I ignore it..it barks again, and I ingore it. Eventually that dog gives up, and poof, it is no longer an issue. If people feel some urge and choose to jump on that horse and kick it down the road, they will get sucked into serving desires that could have been avoided. I think it is far wiser to simply withdraw your energy and focus from it, until it goes away.. We are talking hormones here. None of us had sexual inclinations as young children and were happier without the itch. Sure it feels good to scratch an itch, but the itch continues on and on, and then we run around scratching all of these itches.. So I ignore the itches, and answer to legitimate needs… what is necessary to maintain health, like healthy food, water, and rest. I don’t even eat for pleasure, although I may enjoy a tasty healthy meal. The point is..that even if I do happen to enjoy a tasty healthy meal, it is over right when the meal is over. It doesn’t own me. I am never preoccupied with my next meal, and don’t think of my last meal. I eat to make the hunger go away when it arises. Sex is unnecessary. Jesus said “Better not to marry, but better to marry than to burn with passion” My body is my slave. I don’t take direction from it, aside from healthy food in moderation, water, and rest. So, I don’t concern myself with homosexuality. At the same time, I think it is highly inappropriate to teach young children, that natural relations are on par with unnatural ones, because they are not. Sexual issues should be adressed in the home, by the parents. This is not real education in our schools, it is an agenda,it is political, it is child abuse. In school, they should teach reading, writing, arithmatic, history, physical education, and I think it would be nice if they taught ethics, friendship, honesty, character, propriety, sincerity and other good virtues…so we as a nation can be more selfless, moral society. But as we can all plainly see, the moral degradation of our culture is quite obvious, and suicide rates and the number of people on psych meds is a testimony to our failure as a culture They now teach the LGBT agenda, feminism, and all sorts of political godless political garbage. Quit indoctrinating our innocent children already! I am also for reenacting obscenity laws too….the trash on TV, and in the music, movie, and gaming industry has gone way too far in the name of freedom of speech..to our detriment. Now back into the Light…where words cannot enter. Poof! :)

    • Tim says

      Mark, A good verse: “for it is a shame to even speak of those things which are done of them in secret.” I grew up in Texas before “Lawrence (Supreme Court Ruling). The plea of the sodomite community was “don’t invade our privacy” “what we do in private is not anyone’s business”. Now, the issue is no longer privacy, but affirmation. When they could legally engage themselves in private they didn’t feel any better about what they were doing, so they looked for affirmation in society in general. Since that hasn’t worked, well now we are looking for affirmation in the church. I so appreciate your statement regarding being in the Light. Poof, I am out of here. :)

      • Matt says

        Tim, great point. In my youth I too heard the words from activist in the LGBT community calling for others to just give them the “OK” to do what they wanted “with their bodies” as “adults” etc….. Today we have people having rallies promoting SEX…. The people in attendance make out in ways that if a heterosexual couple engaged in like behavior they’d violated decency ordinances in most communities. I could not and would not support federal or state laws making homosexuality illegal but I honestly do not want to see ANYONE (regardless of sexual lifestyle) engaging in overt make out sessions in masses at a public park in my downtown. Today, it’s no longer about being free to be gay it’s about making it cool to be gay. We have kindergarteners being exposed to sexual materials regarding sexual orientation. We have books, radio, videos, TV, screaming at us that it’s OK to be gay, we have children in school being told in 5th & 6th grade how to have sex and in some materials being encouraged to explore themselves sexually. It’s no longer an issue about being ALLOWED to be homosexual, it’s an issue now of encouraging others to be. The sad reality of it is, the church is deafeningly silent on the issue. While some pastors scream, spit and shout and makes stupid and uncalled for remarks about fences and food, other’s seem to simply sit idle and let so many people go on thinking it’s all OK. The truth is, you won’t find the truth anywhere in the spectrum. Truth resides on a different plane altogether. God’s word does not condone the lifestyle and neither can the body of Christ. However we can share that message in love and with HOPE. God can heal the pain and fill the voids in the person’s life, just like he can a drug addict, a murderer, adulterer, etc. God’s power to heal is limitless and it is healing that I see so many people in need of. Too many people are going to churches injured, hurting, bleeding (spiritually) and dying but because no one wants to be called “intolerant” or “judgmental” the people are smiling, nodding and ignoring the 2×4 sticking out of the person’s spiritual ribcage. How sad we cannot find healing in the house of the Great Physician.

        • Tim says

          Perhaps they are no longer His House? I agree. I am finding the air very thick when it comes to spiritual noise and interference. There is healing available to all. Somehow though, many think they are fine and don’t need it. I was so infected with this same mindset. My wife would wake (typically before light in the morning) and find me daily studying my Bible (as I have our whole marriage) and call me faithful. All the while I was terribly hooked on physician prescribed Demerol and Hydrochodone (very strong and addictive pain meds). I thought I was fine with the LORD, but I as my life began to fall apart (thank G-d) I had to take a real serious look at my walk with Him. I had fallen away and it has been one heck of a trip finding my way back. For me, returning to that place of peace and a state of being (not doing) in the Light. When life got out of order and I seemingly lost control, fear set in and the downward spiral was pronounced to say the least. Which is why I so appreciated your comment regarding the Light and where words have little place or power; after all they are just verbal, and who needs that when we can commune with our Creator without them? Poof, I am outa here :)

  10. Sandra Carpenter says

    see my commentary…Are homosexuals born that way or does it really matter….I believe you will find the commentary quite usefull!! God Bless K.I.S.S. The WhomSo Ever

  11. Harrison V. says

    I’m curious. I’m not gay, but I’d like to know how some gay people first came to be attracted to the same sex. Was it a physical attraction, or was it a deep sincere care for the inner person and their hopes, dreams, goals, thoughts, etc.? I know full well that the introduction of one can lead to the other, or just one remains present period. The way I used to look at girls a few years back was all physical (and I payed the mental and physical…but not the spiritual :)…..price for it. Now, while I am attracted physically to women, I make it a point not to let it become lust and look at them as God’s creation, not objectively. Now I have come to care more about the inward persons and not just focus on the physical (as a matter of fact, I try to avoid excessive physical attraction…personal choice). There’s my point of view. However, it is limited. I’m not sure about the things I asked about earlier because, as I said, I am not gay.

    • Robert W. says

      Hi Harrison, I’ve seen some other LGBTs post on this site, but I think I’m the only regular so I’ll try to answer. I think both some degree of physical attraction and a deep caring for the inner person are important to a stable relationship. I used to be in a heterosexual relationship. Although I had questioned my sexuality, I wasn’t out to myself at the time. She pursued me. We got to know each other and I had a love for her as a person, but not a physical attraction. When it ended by her choice, she said she thought I had loved her as much as I could but it was not enough. On the other hand, when I met my partner, there was a physical attraction from the start for both of us. We talked together and found a spark between us. We weren’t just physically attracted, we were kindred spirits in many ways. Teenagers, especially boys, are raging masses of hormones. Very few teenage relationships of any kind get past the physical stage. As we age, we find that mental connection is just as important. If a relationship starts with a purely physical attraction, you had better find that mental connection soon or it won’t last. I don’t think we’re really different in this.

      • Harrison V. says

        True, a lot of people fail to mention the similarities. All humans have a flesh craving (which can never be satisfied) and a spiritual craving (which can), no matter what. I’m not saying it’s entirely wrong (I truly don’t know right now) to start with a physical attraction and let that be what guides a person to care for the inward person, but in my limited experience, it has distorted my views of the person even on the inside. I’m not sure if it applies here, but I am constantly cautious of this distortion due to the fact it seriously messed me up a while back. I praise God that I’m not who I was then, now. Now, there is a fact to mention that we have made different choices in relationship preferences and boundaries. I don’t support homosexuality (sorry…for lack of a better word coming to mind) because I read that it is considered a sin and I don’t want to mess with the Law even though I’m no longer bound to it. However, while I disadvise any participation in this (not to say that deep personal friendships are wrong…….that’s something else (example: my relationship with Christ)), I can’t make your decisions for you, nor will I try. That’s one of the main points of this website that I have recently come to a better understanding of: You can’t (and/or shouldn’t) shove a person in the way you think or know is right, but you can (and/or should) point them in that direction. And above all, leave it to God and the person to get it sorted out with your help should the person ask or God (please make sure it’s Him BTW) directs you.

        • Robert W. says

          Harrison, I agree that we’re not that different. Your last two sentences are something I’ve been trying to find the right platform to say since I started posting here. God does indeed make changes when you come to him. These are not necessarily the changes you or those around you expect. He also gives us different understandings of his word. There are many things I struggle with that I am indeed called to change. Being gay and loving my partner is not one of them. (Kirk, I hope you’re reading this. I’ll get to your post when I have some more time) Your use of homosexuality is correct. You are using it to describe the orientation rather than a person. In any case, I wouldn’t object to it anything like the one Tim and I are discussing.

  12. Anonymous says

    I KNOW to be a fact that being homosexual in and of itself is NOT a sin. But the “act” of homosexual sex is. Homosexuals are called to chasity. That is their cross to bear in the name of our Lord and Savior. The Catholic stance on homosexuality in the “CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH” ccc:2357~ This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

  13. Steve Barry says

    The Catholic Catechism also states: 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

    • Robert W. says

      Steve, called to chastity? On who’s authority? Not God’s. Jesus said in Matthew 19, “there are those who are eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of God. Those who can should do so.” Jesus acknowledged that chastity is not something all or even most people are called to do. I do not feel called to it. What the Catholic Church is attempting to do is sentence us to a life of misery and isolation from human comfort because of the way we are born (something I believe they do acknowledge). Also, please explain how it is “disordered.” Biologically and psychologically it is part of the normal range of human sexuality. Lastly, while I am not called to chastity I do believe there is a biblical call to marriage for all of us. I deeply resent the Catholic Church’s heavy handed attempts to influence legislation to impose their own views and prevent me from fulfilling my belief.

      • Kirk says

        Hello Robert: I’ll reply soon to your Jan. 31st email also. Strictly biologically speaking, gay sexual unions are not natural. Frankly speaking, when actual sex (not oral), is undertaken, the anus is supposed to function as a type of ‘vagina.’ This is clearly not the way God through natural selection or instant design created the anus’ to function, or the orifice’s sphinctor muscles. As you are certainly aware, frequent use of the anus as a sexual organ causes degeneration in the sphinctor muscles, and eventually results in in the muscles’ losing their ability to constrict, and thereby hold fecal wastes without involuntary release. This is a statement of fact. In addition, the anus is filled with bacterial wastes from the fecal matter that typically remains in the orifice. Also, the argument that other mammals frequently develop same sex sexual intimacy doesn’t hold water. Close review of supposed male/male sexual unions (including dogs ‘humping’ their human masters’s legs, etc), reveals that this typically adolescent animals with newly developed sexual organs, and can often serve as a type of dominance behavior (I saw it many times with young maturing bulls trying to mount each other). God simply didn’t create same gender sexual unions as a natural form of sexual union.

        • Anonymous says

          Kirk, why the sexual references? What’s your point? But, since you bring it up, you do realize that over a third of gay men never have anal sex right? There are many ways for 2 bodies to fit together. Further, many heterosexuals practice anal sex. This is not an exclusively gay behavior. In fact, I can’t think of anything that we do that is exclusively gay. You also need to realize, it’s not really about sex. Although sex is a component. It’s about who we are attracted to, how we form relationships with others. Most importantly, it’s about forming that intimate relationship with someone who will be your best friend and partner for life. Sex is part of the glue in human pair bonds, but it goes much deeper than that. Are all your relationships with women just about sex? We are no different. There are indeed animal examples of homosexuality. Approximately 8% of rams preferentially mate with other males, even when a female in estrous is available. About 25% of black swan pairs are male-male. They steal nests or eggs and raise the young together. Those young have a better survival rate than heterosexual pairs. You also completely ignored the developmental evidence I gave earlier. Those differences can only arise in utero or infancy. We are indeed made this way. Feel free to reply here or my other posts, but I don’t expect to reply further. I’m simply getting too busy to spend the kind of time this takes. There is one more post I’d like to try to make. After that, I may come back to read but no more long replies.

          • Tim says

            You said ” Feel free to reply here or my other posts, but I don’t expect to reply further. I’m simply getting too busy to spend the kind of time this takes. There is one more post I’d like to try to make. After that, I may come back to read but no more long replies” I said originally “If you are not willing to change, or don’t see the need for it I am convinced that no amount of Biblical input will institute change against your will. The thing that will institute change is brokenness. If you continue to seek the Lord and are sincere in your efforts, you will be broken. It is looking painfully obvious that you are not here to learn but toinfluence. I suspect that you are not going to continue posting because you have not succeeded in influencing anyone nor have you found affirmation for your sin. As I can see, everyone, including myself have shown great grace and acceptance. As I stated in an earlier post that I do see some unfair treatment of sodomites in the church community. However, the sodomite community unfairly labels the church “hateful” when they don’t find affirmation. Additionally, you have experienced truth here because our G-d cannot lie. Your acceptance of the same will show your love. Consequently, your rejection of G-ds truth will only manifest the hate that lives in your heart.

      • Tim says

        As a side note, I was raised Catholic and left that church many years ago. It seems you have made a god of your own understanding; he will always let you down. The sodomite community parades their sin proclivity around as if it is a badge of honor. I was born to an alcoholic mother. It may not be my fault that I am an alcoholic by birth, but it is definitely my problem. I have ofter asked G-d, why me? Well, I now understand that the weakness has become my strength; and certainly not by justifying it or wrestling with the Scriptures to make it seem godly or even an expression of freedom. Deep down I have known it is a weakness that separates me from G-d. So, as I grew I found that His strength removed the weakness and the desire to drink or do drugs. How could I have found that strength had I not gone down this road? It doesn’t matter how you are born. Sin is sin. We are born into this sin proclivity to learn how to love. If we learn that love, we have honored our Creator.

        • Robert W. says

          Tim, It is as I told you, I simply have little time for this site right now. I’m going to be brief so forgive me if I seem short. We are not broken although many have been grievously hurt, typically by the church. I was half a person and God lifted me up and showed me who I am and that He loves me just the way He made me. I am complete now. You would return me to being half a person. You cannot dent that certainty. I am here because I believe in the goal of this website, to change the face of Christianity. Why are you here? I see in you the many of the problems we are trying to address, particularly judgmentalism. Are you trying to change? We accuse the majority of churches of hostility because, whether or not you think it comes from love, your doctrine generates hostility. (see my response to Brad under Are homosexuals born that way?) Your very language, which I have tried repeatedly to point out to you, is hostile. The church is the source of much of the hatred against LGBTs and I can think of nothing more unchristian or dangerous to the church. Your church is broken Tim. Fix it and leave us be. I say this as a christian who loves the church and I admit with some anger at those who warp it’s message in this way. You accused me of twisting scripture. I would like you to reread what you wrote on Sodom. Now read Genesis 19:14. Lot’s daughters were betrothed. The marriages were not yet consummated. The TRUTH is that there is one sentence that implies a homosexual act and that is gang rape. This was a highly patriarchal society and there was nothing more humiliating to a man than to be used like a woman. This was an angry mob out to humiliate the strangers, not have sex with them. There is no homsexuality in this story unless you bring it there yourself. Now read Ezekial 16:49. It says what the sins of Sodom were. Is homosexuality there? If the bible plainly states why Sodom was destroyed, why do so many of you insist on giving this story a meaning that is used to hurt so many people? The same can be said of the other clobber passages. I use the term clobber because many use them as a weapon to hurt us. You are reading intent into them that the authors simply did not have.

          • Tim says

            Tim, “It is as I told you, I simply have little time for this site right now. I’m going to be brief so forgive me if I seem short. “ I am not thin skinned so there is no need for an apology We are not broken although many have been grievously hurt, typically by the church. I was half a person and God lifted me up and showed me who I am and that “He loves me just the way He made me. I am complete now.” If G-d loves us just the way He made us why are we instructed in Scripture that we must be born again? You would return me to being half a person. You cannot dent that certainty.I want you to become the person G-d has created you to be I am here because I believe in the goal of this website, to change the face of Christianity. Why are you here? I see in you the many of the problems we are trying to address, particularly judgmentalism. Yes I am judgemental, Paul has said “I find that there is not a man among you that can judge, to your shame”. I do not condemn however, there is a distinct difference. Condemnation leaves no hope. If you study out righteous judgement, you will find that the problem is condemnation not judgement. Are you trying to change? Yes I am changing constantly; as well as my theology We accuse the majority of churches of hostility because, whether or not you think it comes from love, your doctrine generates hostility. (see my response to Brad under Are homosexuals born that way?) Your very language, which I have tried repeatedly to point out to you, is hostile. No, my language is Biblical as far as I am concerned. You choose to let that bother you. The church is the source of much of the hatred against LGBTs and I can think of nothing more unchristian or dangerous to the church. Your church is broken Tim. Fix it and leave us be. I say this as a christian who loves the church and I admit with some anger at those who warp it’s message in this way.Yes the message of the church has been warped and as I said in earlier posts, there is discrimination. Specifically, the church tolerates some sin while condemning sodomites as if their sin is unforgivable. You accused me of twisting scripture. I would like you to reread what you wrote on Sodom. Now read Genesis 19:14. Lot’s daughters were betrothed. You are confusing the Hebrew words there. The Hebrew word for betrothed in the Tenach is ya`ad (transliterated). The Hebrew word used in the passage you quoted is laqach (also transliterated). The latter is the commonly used for something that is bought and carried away. The marriages were not yet consummated. This is a prime example of how you have twisted the Scriptures. The TRUTH is that there is one sentence that implies a homosexual act and that is gang rape. This was a highly patriarchal society and there was nothing more humiliating to a man than to be used like a woman. This was an angry mob out to humiliate the strangers, not have sex with them. There is no homsexuality in this story unless you bring it there yourself. just because you have closed your eyes to the obvious doesn’t mean it no longer exists. Now read Ezekial 16:49. It says what the sins of Sodom were. Is homosexuality there? Absolutely, it is there; continue reading to verse 50 “and they were haughty and committed an abomination before me”. If you study the references to sodomy in the Bible you will find repeatedly that it is coupled with the term abomination. You will also find that the behavior is one that is classified as a sin unto to death. According to Biblical law, like murder, adultery, rape, child molestation etc… it is a capital offense deserving of the death penalty If the bible plainly states why Sodom was destroyed, why do so many of you insist on giving this story a meaning that is used to hurt so many people? Once again, Sodom was destroyed, burned due to the abomination they committed that went up as a stench to the LORD.The same can be said of the other clobber passages. I use the term clobber because many use them as a weapon to hurt us. You are reading intent into them that the authors simply did not have. Robert, the truth is, from past experience, I hold little hope that what I write will affect change in you. I have dealt with enough sodomites in the past to understand without a sincere desire to change evident, all the discussion regarding the issue is almost pointless. My main concern with this discussion is that you are part of an agenda that desires to influence the church. Unfortunately, there are many in the churches that are immature and not aptly studied in the Scriptures and therefore easily manipulated. I would like to caution you however regarding Romans 1. AV Ro 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.. The above referenced recompence is defined in a subsequent verse as follows: “28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;” Reprobate is defined as rejected. In other words the mind is no longer capable of discerning the will of G-d. This is a very bad place to be and I fear that you are dangerously close. Any outsider looking in would agree that there is a natural use and an unnatural use. One produces life; the other cannot produce life as it is dead. Your mind has become reprobated to the point that you cannot see or accept this simple truth. I do pray for you though.

  14. Harrison V. says

    Alright. We’ve read the comments, heard the arguments, defenses, attacks, and compliments. Now I propose something of a nature I’m sure we can all agree is more productive. Since the well-known Valentine’s Day is coming up, I propose we all pray on the matter. Let us ask God collectively, but individually, what His opinion is on the matter. I’m sure He will do as He always has, is, and will do. Your bother in Christ, H.V.

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